- This post addresses spiritual issues. If you don't care to address issues of spirituality, please don't keep reading
- To be clear and level, I am a Christian, meaning I do believe God is real and that Jesus is who He said He is. I believe freely accepting God's gift of salvation is what Jesus taught as the way to make things right between us and God; salvation is something God did and freely offers us. I believe the Bible was written by people but inspired by God. There are many ways to know God, but I believe the Bible is one of the best and most clear expressions of His thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and ways. As such, I'm a big fan of it as a primary tool for living life - though my reading of it is often too infrequent.
- I am not and do not claim to be in a good place spiritually. In some ways, I'm better than I ever have been - in that I'm trying to be honest with myself and God. In other ways, I'm much worse - distracted and lazy at times. Overall, I'd describe myself as seeking.
- I've been accurately described as any and all of the following: liar, loyal, unloyal, dear friend and brother, unloving bastard, generous, selfish, lost, leader, pastoral, sinner, fallen. Paradoxes are a bite, huh? All that to say I'm not sharing from a position of authority. I'm a shmuck who happens to be loved by God, his family, and his wife - all undeservedly.
- I'm hoping to provoke some conversation by this post and find some answers for myself and others that might be seeking as well
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.On that basis, I'm hoping that pursuing this line of questioning will lead to some much-needed answers.
More Background... feel free to skip this
Since the circumstances of my life took a major turn in late 2004, I've essentially been disconnected from the organized group of people we like to call "a church". Cre and I have attended a handful of places and are currently occasionally attending a church in Grantham where we very much like the pastor and his wife; they've been very kind and generous to us and I feel like - as people - we have a lot to learn from them.
Since the circumstances of my life took a major turn in late 2004, I've essentially been disconnected from the organized group of people we like to call "a church". Cre and I have attended a handful of places and are currently occasionally attending a church in Grantham where we very much like the pastor and his wife; they've been very kind and generous to us and I feel like - as people - we have a lot to learn from them.
As for the overall church in Grantham, I think the people are nice. Yet, I continue to be hesitant about getting more invested - in part my own doing and in part our lack of real personal connection to the people. It's just not happening for me, and I tend to think its more than just my own skittish nature (though I'm not sure and have considered getting more involved to spur me on to magically "connecting").
In general, I'm questioning the whole notion of a modern church and whether seeking to find a place to attend regularly is a worthwhile pursuit. I've never really felt comfortable with the church, though I've worked hard to be a part of it my entire life. Just prior to 2004, I thought I had found a church experience that worked - where I was deeply invested in real relationship and living life together. That fell apart, and I can't imagine how the organized, communal experience can work if that couldn't.
As any American Christian knows these days, finding a church is a tough thing. Compile on that my own church issues and a factor Trevor and I like to call the "Icon Hangover" (i.e. I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For meets brief dynamic church community anomaly) and you have the basis for a conundrum.
Anyway, after reading Divine Nobodies, I felt compelled to write Jim Palmer a thank you email (those of you who know me are not surprised). I thanked him for the book and decided to field this issue of feeling disconnected / not wanting to be connected / thinking I should want to be connected / not knowing what the heck I think / not caring sometimes. Jim was generous enough to send me a lengthy and personal response, but also directed me to examples of alternative expressions of fellowship including the following:
http://lifestream.org/LSBL.May01.html
Get to the point already!
As any American Christian knows these days, finding a church is a tough thing. Compile on that my own church issues and a factor Trevor and I like to call the "Icon Hangover" (i.e. I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For meets brief dynamic church community anomaly) and you have the basis for a conundrum.
Anyway, after reading Divine Nobodies, I felt compelled to write Jim Palmer a thank you email (those of you who know me are not surprised). I thanked him for the book and decided to field this issue of feeling disconnected / not wanting to be connected / thinking I should want to be connected / not knowing what the heck I think / not caring sometimes. Jim was generous enough to send me a lengthy and personal response, but also directed me to examples of alternative expressions of fellowship including the following:
http://lifestream.org/LSBL.May01.html
Get to the point already!
My purpose in posting is simply to evoke conversation. Please read the article above and feedback, either in email or preferably through the comments section on this blog post. So what do you think about the article and what the author has to say? Is the argument legit? Maybe you think the issue (and article) is bunk. Maybe you have some insight I'm not privy to. Whatever your response, share. This is a conversation and I'd love to have the benefit of multiple people's thoughtful feedback and consideration. What do you think?
Cheers - cause I'm so British,
tango
Cheers - cause I'm so British,
tango
11 comments:
The article was a good read and has a lot of good points... A few of my initial reactions:
- The "church" word argument I feel is just an issue of semantics. Yes, the Church (big C) should represent the world-wide body of believers, but the building people go to Sunday mornings will still be referred to as a church (little c). One word - two meanings. Like orange is a color of my kids crayons but it is also a sweet fruit that grows in California and Florida.
- All things in life (your job, your family, your church, The Church, your friends...) are made up of people who by nature are sinful and flawed. I don't agree with the notion that organized religion is by nature the problem - I quote from the article "I can tell you absolutely that my worst days outside organized religion are still better than my best days inside it". Organized religion and churches are flawed by the people involved, not by God's involvement. If I have a bad experience at Company A as an engineer, it is probably because of the people I work with or what I'm expected to do. That certainly doesn't mean I can't have a vastly different experience as an engineer at Company B because the people and their expectations are different. Likewise, I also have the oppurtunity to call some of my engineer friends and say, "Hey, let's start our own company." In the same way, having a bad experience at church A doesn't mean I can't find one that I truly connect with the people or you find a group of people you truly connect with and continue being the Church with them. The church (building, denomination, doctrines, etc.) is not what it's about - I quote my current pastor "It's all about the people" which is what my current church (little c) is based on.
- I understand the point that meeting with smaller groups in tighter relationships is better than a church (little c) with people who put on the Sunday-face and are expected to be there every week. But this doesn't mean you can't find that tight relational group within a church or you can't be ministered to and minister to others in a large church setting. Churches (little c) are certainly useful in ways in which a small group may not be. What happens if your small group of 5 closely knit friends who worship and praise God becomes a group of 15 or 20? You now can't meet at the spur of a moment because you need everyone to coordinate schedules. So you meet at Bruster's every Tuesday night. But what if that groups sincerity and realness doubles the size to 30-40? (Bruster's would love the business and seriously who wouldn't want to go to "church" at an ice cream shop?) But seriously, you now need leadership and a place to meet and - wait, you've actually formed what the world would call a church (little c). The problem becomes when the people involved in this small part of the Church (big C) body fall and their sinful and mistaken nature causes conflicts and problems in that body. A few people lose their focus on Jesus and have to focus on the logistics of everything... But this again is all about the people & their problems, not about the fact that it has had to become more organized out of necessity.
- My personal experience has been that I have been involved in two churches since "getting out on my own". One had about 20-25 attenders each week, the other close to 400 (about 100 of which are kids). In each I was able to get involved in what most people call a small group. This was good in one instance and great in the other. However, if I hadn't been involved in the big group (the church) I wouldn't have found these people in the little group (some of which were from the church, some were not). If there is a church that seems superficial and lifeless, is it not part of the Great Commission to also witness to these people? Couldn't a small group of strongly devoted people within that church help change it from the inside out? We often talk about ministering to the people outside of the Church body (big C) but what about those people that ARE outside the Church, but they are inside a church every Sunday?
Anywho, these are just my initial thoughts and reactions. I believe the article raises many points which are valid - the biggest of which is that we need to be real about our Christianity and be real with our relationships with other Christians and through those relationships we can see Christ be fruitful in all of our lives. However, I don't think this means going to church is the problem. I have heard this message (about being real with yourself and others) with sincerity in sermons at the church I currently attend many, many, many times. Is it easier to float along through a church (little c) setting? Sure is, but you can also get involved, form relationships, be ministered to, minister to others, grow personally with God, grow with others with God, and more with the right attitude and heart. Maybe I'm fortunate that the churches I've been involved in have been filled with the right people to minister to me. I know there's churches out there that would not have had the same influences on me. But it did in both cases I found a church, take nearly a year before finding a group of believers where I could be fed and could help feed others.
In conclusion, I also have dealt with my fair share of issues and problems that even some of my closest friends may not know about. I don't know the bible half as well as some people might think I do, and until recently have not prayed nearly as much as anyone would have guessed. I've had recent experiences that I feel are leading me closer to God and I praise him for being there with me even when I wasn't talking to him. I'm by no means an expert in this subject, but pray that I have the communication skills to get my point across and can help a friend understand what God would have him know.
-KL
I agree with Kyle's post, though I will also add the following:
1. The contemporary system of denominations, congregations, etc., of every stripe is certainly not ideal. I would prefer to see something closer to the community church that began to disappear after the Reformation. One church per community, where all Christians would congregate. That, to me, seems a much better system. Alas, it is not where we find ourselves now, nor is it likely to occur in our lifetime. Given that, we'll have to make do with what we have.
2. I know this point has already been made to a certain degree, but bear with me. If you are a Christian, then you are part of the Church. If you are part of the Church, then you have a responsibility to be caring for the rest of the Church and a need to be taking part in the life of the Church. I think scripture is very clear on this. Can this be done outside of a local congregation? Not really. If the body is to care for itself, it needs to get together. Even if you eschew an already existing, traditionally defined congregation and start meeting with a few fellow believers at the ice cream shop, you've formed a congregation. In some form or another, that congregation is going to experience the problems that all congregations experience, because it is 1) a group and 2) made up of sinful people.
3. Don't forget the sacraments. It is difficult for me to imagine communion happening in a real sense outside of a congregation of committed believers.
4. Bloom where you're planted. I, personally, am a strong believer in picking a congregation and giving it all you've got. Depending on where you are and where the congregation is, you may find yourself almost as more of an evangelist, helping to bring light to otherwise wandering Christians. Or you might find a group that enables you to be reaching out more to the community around you. The possibilities are only limited by the number of "churches" around you... and then you can always start your own! Seriously, though, church is not about what you get out of it. It's not about you at all. It's about serving God and serving the body of Christ. If you are doing that, any ol' church will do.
5. And in conclusion... you can't be a free-lance Christian. I fully agree that "church" in the way it is defined by most people who have been evangelicals since birth is totally screwed up. But you, as a Christian, are intended to be involved with and accountable to a body of believers. You can define that body however you like, but you still need that body. And that body needs you. So find your way of connecting with the body, and start giving it all you've got.
Tango,
Perhaps in the coming days, I’ll be able to formulate a more complete and reasoned response, but for now I offer two observations:
1. Does size really matter?
After Jacobsen argued for his definition of Church (as a body of believers (the people vice the institution or location), he changes his use of the word back to our cultural equivalent referring to his expression as an expression of body life. While I appreciate his earlier “quibbling over word” and whole heartedly embrace the relational definition of the Church – at what point does the size of the group constitute a church (institution). Apologies for quibbling over the numbers.
[Incidentally, the quip about all major heresies originating from within the church is another definitional quandary… the heresies are considered major because they are associated with an institution – individual heresies would pale in terms written historical accounts, but are they any less common or dangerous? And what about the heresies that the Church prevented the propagation thereof – we do get it right sometimes.]
2. Individual vs. the Corporation?
In post-modern fashion, Jacobsen outlines his rationale and experiences: this is what works for me, and not a global recommendation. We all can admit that churches can be screwed up confederations of fallen individuals, evidenced by many of the fallen with righteous merit badges informing the rest of us where we are screwing up. There are days where I don’t feel it is working for me either, and Sunday morning would be much better in my library. However, this is a very selfish and individualistic argument – what is best for all Christians or should I say the Church?
As someone who went to church faithfully for Tuesday Choir Practice, Wednesday Family Training Hour, Thursday Board Meetings (then Choir practice), Friday Youth Group, Sunday School, AM Service and PM Service… I was taught early on to “not forsake the assembly” (Heb 10:25) though I think that I overzealously interpreted the scripture in my youth and skipped over the later half. One of the key reasons listed in Hebrews for the regular meetings is encouraging one another. Though Paul does not specifically address why some folks are skipping out, he is fairly clear that the meetings are intended for us to learn to love, do good deeds and encourage each other in our collective hope – Christ’s return and being united with Him.
Things get messy. We forget to love. We behave badly. We screw up. We cannot always rely on an individual expression of faith during those times, because we can become disoriented, confused or just plain overwhelmed. It seems that the relational communal aspect of the Church was part of God’s plan to remind us of his covenant and to be his hands and feet here on Earth until His return. So as flawed as it may be, an institution may be the best construct that we can invent to serve a community where the individual is both serving and served within that context.
Stodgy Old Theology Professor Response:
Let’s look at word usage - Church comes from the Greek ekklesia, the “called out” ones. In Greek usage, this referred specifically to those called out to an assembly. So, the ekklesia of Jesus Christ are those called out from the world to assemble in His presence. We can take the modern word to mean whatever we want, but the Bible uses it to mean a group assembly, and something that Christians should participate in. See 1 Corinthians 11:17-ff for proof that early Christians did this and Hebrews 10:25 for a call not to stop.
It is important for Christians to be a part of the church to help fulfill the 4 main functions of the church - Worship (Believer --> God), Edification (God --> Believer), Fellowship (Believer --> Believer) and Evangelism (Believer --> non-Believer). While some of these things can be done on their own, none of them can be done completely in isolation. “It is not good for man to be alone” is more than just a reason for the existence of women.
Frustrated Church Leader Response:
As evidenced in the quote Kyle used, it seems as though the author of the article has more of a problem with the way people "do" church than with the Church itself. Unfortunately, he seems to have taken his experiences with some churches and projected it onto all churches. He is certainly not alone in this. There is currently a strong reaction in many places (like the Christian Mecca where I current reside) against the Mega-Church model of doing church. Heck, even the “mega-est” of Mega Churches has a problem with the way they've been doing church and teaching others to do church. See Willow Creek Repents? According to this article (a good read if you’re into this sort of thing), too many churches today are acting like businesses. The bottom line has become attendance and people are seen as customers. With these parameters (and the consumer mentality we masses are nurtured into), Wal-Mart church wins. “They have the best worship service.” “Have you seen the nursery?” “A coffee bar! In the church!?! Amazing.”
Good worship services are good. Good nursery facilities are good too. Coffee bars are good (and I don’t even like coffee). But, they aren’t the main thing. Go read any church growth book today and these are the things the book will talk about. “Make sure your facilities are top-notch.” “People want their children to feel safe.” So, there are a bunch of struggling churches who paint new lines in the parking lot and put bars on the nursery windows expecting a flood of people to come in and make their church great. Sometimes, unfortunately, this works - more people come for the goodies, but don’t get anything else.
Is it any wonder that there are so many unconverted (George Barna says way over 50%) people in churches? If this is all that’s out there, you’re better off staying at home.
Book Review Response:
Divine Nobodies was not a book about church problems or how to be a Christian without church. It was really just about being a Christian no matter where you are or what you are doing. It said that God has blessed each of us in different ways, some of us are engineers, some programmers, some teachers, some leaders, some followers, but each of us have some piece of the divine inside of us. We tend to look only at those who are known for that divine piece when we want or need spiritual guidance, but really we can and should look to each other (with proper diligence - something Palmer doesn’t say).
In addition, Palmer’s book calls each of us to be in touch with God on our own, without depending on the church to spoon-feed us. Paul calls out his readers in 1 Corinthians 13 for not moving past the milk he gave them - they were depending on him the way too many people depend on the church to make them grow. When, in reality we each need to work out our own salvation (with fear and trembling, even). The church is the collection of these people, not the breeding ground.
Pastoral Response:
This would start by echoing Kyle. Church is about relationship and community. You’ve been there and experienced that and it failed you when you really needed it. That sucks.
But, you’ve learned from it, you’ve grow from it. Was what you’ve gained worth the sacrifice? Was the experience worth the pain?
James tells us to consider it joy when we face trials of all kinds, because when your faith is tested it builds perseverance which leads to maturity - something we all need.
So, what to do? Here is Ben’s amazing response (especially #4) - get out there and do it again. Ask not what the church can do for you, but go and show some poor unsuspecting comfortable church what you have to offer.
Go read Ephesians 6:10-18. I know you’ve read it before, but do it again. Two things:
1) Amidst the armor there is nothing to cover your back. If you retreat, you’re dead.
2) Paul tells us to put on the full armor of God, but he never tells us to take it off. If you want to do anything for God, you have to constantly be ready for the attack - if it doesn’t come, you aren’t making a difference. The more of a difference you make, the harder it will come. Consider it pure joy...
Gheorghe’s Response:
Tango, you are an amazing, talented fireball of a man that God has gifted in magnificent ways. Pastors pray for men like you in their churches. You’ve seen a glimpse of the potential God has loaned you. You’ve tasted that God is good and that Satan hates you and your happiness. These things will never change. What are you gonna do about it? Satan wants you home, confused and outwardly content - where you’ll do the least amount of damage to his plans.
Greater men than you have faced less and crumbled, lesser men than you have faced more and triumphed. For the sake of the kingdom, fight.
Trevor's identification of the inherent post-modern bent of the article is a significant insight and worthy of calling attention to. Also, I'm liking this Gheorghe guy an awful lot. He makes a lot of sense, and not only because he referred to my response as (and I quote) "amazing." To step out of the theoretical and into the present personal sense, I would add a resounding "amen" to his final, personal reply.
Specifically regarding the role of the church (read global institution), I ran across this Rick Warren interview on Meet the Press last Christmas Eve. Full transcript can be found at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16202841/ . Extract provided below.
"These problems are so big, Tim, that everybody’s failed at them. The United Nations has failed, the United States has failed. And the reason why is because we have not worked together on these issues. Last year at Davos I kept hearing people talk about public and private partnerships. And what they meant was, we need government and businesses to work together on these big global problems. These are problems that affect billions of people, not millions. And when they said that, I said, “Well, you’re right, but you’re not quite there yet. You’re missing the third leg of the stool.” A one-legged stool will fall over, a two-legged stool will fall over, and business and government alone cannot solve these problems. They haven’t, or they would’ve. The third leg of the stool is the churches. There’s a, there’s a public sector role, there’s a private sector role and there’s a faith sector role.
Each of the three legs have something to bring to the table that the other doesn’t have. Government brings three things to the table on these issues. First, they bring safety and security. That’s the primary job of the government and that is, keep me safe from terrorism or from war so that I can live in peace. Second role of government is to provide freedom so I can prosper. I can go out and I can start a business if I want to and give me freedom. And the third is, set laws and enforce them because somebody’s got to put up stop signs so we’re not in chaos. The church can’t do that and business can’t do it. There’s a legitimate role for government to do these things.
Now, when we talk about poverty, disease, illiteracy and things like that, businesses have a role that government can’t play. Business brings to the table expertise in technology, in health and all kinds of things. They bring capital to the table. Enormous investments. And then they bring, this one’s really important, management skills, because most governments, most businesses and most churches are poorly managed. But if we’re going to solve issues like poverty, disease, illiteracy, corruption, trafficking, all these other things, the church has to be invited to the table for three reasons.
First, we have universal distribution. I could take you to 10 million villages around the world that the only thing they’ve got in it’s a church. In fact, in most of the world, the only civil service society is a church. They don’t have a clinic, they don’t have a school, they don’t have a post office, they don’t have a bar. They’ve got a church. Millions and millions of—the church was global 200 years before anybody started talking about globalization. In fact, it’s the only global, truly global organization. There are 2.3 billion people who claim to be followers of Christ. Now that means the church is bigger than China. It’s bigger than India and China put together. So universal distribution. Second thing it’s got is it’s got the greatest pool of manpower. One out of every three people in—on the planet claims to be a follower of Christ. If you mobilize just a billion of those people for these issues, you’d solve it pretty quick. The third thing is, local credibility. What I mean by that is on these issues like poverty, disease, illiteracy, you just can’t go into a village with a program and expect them to accept it. And you have to have credibility. Well, that priest, that pastor, that minister, or for that matter, in the Muslim world, the imam or a rabbi, they have credibility because they’re marrying, they’re burying, they’re with the people in the stages of life. And frankly, I trust them to know more about their community than any government or NGO would ever know."
Now that you've had time to soak this all in, how about a follow-up post with your response/reaction/continuing questions?
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